Here is the link to the article: http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=e38d1a01e8d43210VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Certainly no offense taken at your negative response to my comment. I’m not sure I said it in quite the right way (and I was definately in a foul mood when I wrote it!)

I think a different way to say at least part of what I was getting at is this ….

Because the sexual relationship is one of very few issues where the rules are that you have only one allowed option, it is extremely hard to deal with using experience from other parts of our lives. If there is something in my DW’s life that she wants and makes her happy, but I don’t share that interest, she can (and does and should) fulfill the need with other people. IF, for example, there was a rule that said she could only eat when and what I eat, and we had very different tastes, then she would learn from that relationship issue very different coping skills. And those coping skills would be more applicable to my struggles with the sexual relationship, and might give her more sympathy for my struggle.

I have tried a couple of different times to come up with analogies that might make sense to her. I have never found one. Some have made analogies to eating, to sleeping, to talking, to whatever else. But the point is, none of those analogies really work, because the sexual relationship has such a unique set of rules. And it is “unfair” (and you are right, unfair is probably not the right word) that because there are no other relationships issues (or very very few) that have that same restriction of only one other person to express that need with, there is no good way for the “other person” to understand and sympathize and perhaps be motivated to change.

Ok, perhaps another way to express it ….

We all learn coping skills and empathy skills from our experiences in life. And the key is often to take those skills from our personal experiences, and be able to extrapolate them and apply them to other people and their experiences. As an example, I have heard some people advocate that one way to help a small child not to bite is to bite them back just enough for them to see that the result is pain. You can then help them make the connection that bite=pain, and they can make the leap to understand that bite=pain for the other person.

That is true, at least in principle, for lots of areas of our relationships … with our spouses or with our kids or with our neighbors. We can take our experiences with how it felt when someone said something nasty about us, and use that to learn not to say nasty things about others. Also, we can take the experience of having had something mean said about us, learn from it how to cope with disappointment and with betrayal, and use that to deal with something else the next time.

I am arguing that the Sexual Relationship, because is so many ways it is so unique and has unique rules, is extremely difficult to do that kind of “experience transfer”. My DW, I don’t think, has any idea how much it hurts when she rejects me and says I am a dirty old man, because there is nothing in her life experience that has anything like a common reference frame. And that is “unfair”. Again, unfair is probably not the right word — uniquely challenging? especially difficult?

Thank you for responding.

You mentioned that the ideal is for spouses to choose each other because they like each other- they are hopefully best friends and simply enjoy being together- not out of neediness but out of the happiness that they experience together. I agree wholeheartedly.

It is counter-intuitive to think that a smoldering friendship could be rekindled by pursuing other interests, but I will certainly give this more thought.

For me, I think the key is developing an inner strength. This is hard when I believe I have developed such a tendency to react/respond and to acquiesce instead of choosing and acting from my own convictions.

I definitely like the idea of synergy in marriage- that husband and wife combined are stronger/better than the sum of their individual strengths. I agree that it is healthy for both husband and wife to have outside interests, but I think we have to be very careful to strive for the right balance. In my opinion, over time, too much activity (by either or both spouses) outside the marriage could lead to a deterioration of that relationship. On the other extreme, it isn’t healthy for either or both spouses to rely exclusively on their partner for their fulfillment. As with many aspects of life, the key, I think, is to find that healthy (and often elusive) balance.

Also, I do disagree slightly with the comment that each marriage partner should seek to be whole in and of themselves. I don’t think we can be truly whole as individuals, and although we can and should develop ourselves individually, I think to attempt to be whole by ourselves is a futile exercise and somewhat counter productive to our marital relationship. If we could be whole as individuals, there would be no need for marriage. It was not good for man to be alone, so woman was created as man’s companion and help meet. Man gives to woman and woman gives to man something that neither can achieve alone. This is definitely true in the gospel sense of perfection and wholeness being synomonous. Man cannot be exalted (perfected, whole) without his wife, neither can woman be exalted without her husband.

I welcome any other thoughts or ideas that you or anyone else might have.

Something about this way of looking at the issue rubs me the wrong way. I have been thinking about it for several days now and I can’t exactly put my finger on it, but it still pricks me continually so I want to try and put my thoughts and feelings into words. I’m sorry if this post ends up rambly or disjointed.

I agree that it’s unfair to drastically limit the sexual relationship in marriage. But it’s not the sexual relationship that is fundamentally unfair. Nor is it the social or religious rules of exclusivity that make it unfair. Neither is sex in marriage the only aspect that shares the rules of exclusivity and the associated potential “unfair” denial of one spouse or the other.

Part of what has been troubling me is that the way you phrase this seems to objectify sex as a need. Sex as a purely physical act, separate from the complete relationship, is not a need. In fact, taken to it’s extreme, this is the basis of all sexual sins: adultery, masturbation, pornography, rape, etc. There is a physical drive to “have sex” in any form, but I don’t see this as a human need. In fact, if given full reign, I would describe it as an inhumane perversion. Please don’t take offense at this. I know that you do not intend to objectify and isolate sex in this way, I’m just trying to express in words what is bothering me slightly about your post. I too feel a strong urge to objectify sex for sex’s sake after I have been in a long dry spell, but I believe that these feelings must be guarded against strongly.

I believe that all human beings have a need for a deep and satisfying intimate relationship. This intimacy includes sex, but if it is limited to sex it dies. It seems to be more common among men for this need to be misinterpreted as a simple need for the mechanical act of sex. Those who seek to feed this presumed need never arrive at a place of peace, happiness, or fulfillment. I do not see this as unfair. Unfair seems to imply an arbitrary set of rules.

It’s pointless to call gravity unfair, it simply is. It may seem unfair that I can’t fly, but it’s highly unproductive to waste time complaining about it. Exclusivity in marriage is the same way. It’s more a law of nature, than an arbitrary set of unfair rules. It’s just simply impossible to obtain the surpassing joy and happiness that comes from a deep intimate relationship any other way. God, in his wisdom, explained an eternal truth when he established the guidelines. He did not create the rules any more than Sir Isaac Newton invented gravity. It’s not fair or unfair, it just is. It’s not fair if someone drops a bowling ball on your head, but it’s not gravity that’s unfair.

There is also a fundamental need for a deep emotional connection between spouses that cannot be filled from outside sources. While it is good and appropriate to encourage a spouse to spend time with their friends, this cannot fill their need for a deep and satisfying emotional connection with their spouse. It cannot replace “sitting and talking about stuff and laughing together” as a couple. It’s not unfair that this need exists and can only be filled within marriage, but it is unfair if someone arbitrarily and drastically limits this emotional connection. Time with friends fills an entirely separate need.

I don’t know if this adequately expresses my vauge negative reaction to this post or not. Perhaps it will inspire others to post clearer thoughts on the topic.

Sir John

Hi bdonovan,

Thank you. How awesome that you attended the 2008 Smart Marriages conf. I’ve attended a few in the past, but have had to stop the last few years due to schooling commitments. After I finish graduate school I will again be regularly attending the Smart Marriages conferences (www.SmartMarriages.com) and hope to be able to speak there as well. I have cut back on most all speaking engagements lately because it takes so much time that I don’t currently have, but I will likely be speaking a lot more again once I have the time. It’s always great to hear from fellow marriage strengthening advocates. I wish you well in all your endeavors.

Hi JustMe,

It can be difficult to feel like your spouse can function fairly well without always needing your direct attention. The thing to remember about marriage is that the ideal relationship is that of two strong interdependent individuals who “choose” to be with each other rather than because they are “needy” of what the other can provide them.

The ultimate state of being we are striving to create in marriage is that of ONEness. Oneness is created from two “whole” complete individuals that come together to create a stronger “one” than either could be on their own. We often mistakenly believe that marriage is about about two “halves” coming together to form one “whole” as in 1/2 + 1/2 = 1. What we instead want is 1 + 1 = 1 (a stronger “one”).

My gut feeling is that you would make much more progress in your marriage if you were to develop more of your own independence than continuing to pursue and rely on her for your needs. There’s nothing like a strong, independent man to remind a woman how much she wants and needs him. If he’s always hanging around like a little puppy waiting for scraps the attraction can easily wear down because it is based on neediness not strength.

Consider selecting some hobbies or talents that you would like to develop–not to spite her and her independence, but to develop more of your own. It’s just the kind of dynamics that can create the “coming together” you ultimately desire.

Rather than resenting the time and space she is giving you, take advantage of the opportunity to develop yourself more fully and to serve others. Get out and play basketball with the guys on Thursday nights. Take the kids out to do stuff more often. Start a project with them. Grab a teenage son or daughter and take them jogging/hiking, etc. Put a little more time and/or effort into a church calling or other efforts. Find some things you can do to develop other important relationships and to exercise your strengths rather than exhibiting neediness.

I have a feeling that your wife will be more likely to want to be with you when she sees you moving forward in life, and sees you not being quite so readily available. Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not talking about manipulating her or your situation, but I am talking about becoming your best self. I imagine it has the potential to make you even more attractive to her than you can currently imagine.

There’s something sexy about a man who doesn’t really “need” you, but loves you anyway. It kinda goes back to the laws of economics, and supply and demand. When the supply is high the demand goes down. When the supply diminishes the demand goes up. Give it a try and see what you think. Just be genuine in your desire and efforts to improve yourself rather than trying to “get something” for your efforts.

I think as YOU become a “thriving, vibrant, learning, growing, progressing individual” that you will begin to see your relationship follow suit. I’m excited about the possibilities for you. I wish you well in your new endeavors. Could be very fun!! : )

What I mean is this …

If my wife has interest in Opera, and I am not as interested in Opera, she has lots of options…

She can go alone, or she can go with friends, or she can ask me to go with her even though it is not my favorite, or she can rent an Opera DVD, or any of other options.

If I like college football, and she doesn’t, I have lots of options…. I can watch by myself, I can dvr the games and watch after she goes to bed, I can go with friends, I can read about the scores online, or I can try to talk her into going with me even though it isn’t her favorite.

That is true for almost everything else … I know couples where one is a vegetarian so they have very different desires in terms of foods, but eating alone or eating with friends what is not interesting to their spouse is OK. I know couples where one is very outgoing and friend oriented, and the other is quite shy and private, but the outgoing one going to parties without the reserved one is OK. Reading Books, Watching TV shows, Running or Jogging, even going to church,… if the “drive” of one spouse is very different than the “drive” of the other, doing it alone or with friends is just fine. Yeah, one could probably take it “too far” and that would be bad, but most people would find most options acceptable.

Sexual Relationship is totally different … there is no acceptable option that isn’t both of you together. Man that is hard!! Perhaps it is so much of a challenge because it is soooo unique in that respect.

You know, I KNOW that I have the “low drive” in our relationship for just “sitting and talking about stuff and laughing together”. I try really really hard, but my interest level is just not the same as my DW. I know that, so I encourage her to go to “girls night out” with her friends to meet that need for her. And the visa versa? Well, no.

——–

PS – why are the comment options turned off on all the other articles by this one? Just wondering …..

I love your site on marriage and especially love your insights on the sexual union between a husband and wife. I have had the privilege of meeting Anne Bercht at the 2008 Smart Marriages Conference in San Francisco. She is a great speaker and has first hand experience on overcoming affairs and improving her marriage. I would love to know if you are ever speaking at a Smart Marriages Conference or any other conference for that matter. I have also since started my own blog at improvemymarriage.blogspot.com. I welcome any suggestions you might have. Thank you again for your dedication to strengthening marriage.

Thanks for responding- I appreciate your perspective.

From my perspective, the dilemma is that my wife is much more independent than me. She gets much satisfaction from her many friends and various other activities and responsibilities. It appears to me that marriage for her is little more than some companionship, and besides this, she seems to not need much from me (except to have me provide financially and to help around the house, which I make an effort to do). It is hard for me to not feel as though she gives her best self to others and that I get whatever might be left.

So, although I would love to focus on her needs, this is difficult when she doesn’t seem to need me directly (in our own relationship). Her main need seems to be for me to allow her plenty of room do what she wants, and while this is fine some of the time, there are times when this need is directly opposed to my need for a more close, connected relationship.

Anyway, I have tried to see this from every possible angle, and there is no easy solution. Marriage requires patience, selflessness, and unconditional love, and at least for me, these things require time, effort, and practice to develop.

Also, I don’t mean to convey that my marriage is completely miserable. It’s just very average- we are far from the type of thriving, vibrant, learning, growing, progressing relationship that I would like to have, but maybe this just isn’t realistic.

Thanks again for your comments.

Hi CarsonW,

I would certainly not be an advocate for keeping up “friendships” with former boyfriends. The question is why would you? Some relationships may not be a big deal or a major problem, but especially when sexual intimacies have been shared in the past, it’s definitely not a great idea to maintain or cultivate such relationships.

My bigger concern would be why your sister feels a need to keep up those relationships. Does it make her feel young? Does it make her feel attractive? Do those guys meet a need that her husband doesn’t. These are questions for your sister to ask herself.

It could simply be a lack of maturity that she has not fully cut the apron strings to those who have held her heart in the past. It’s dangerous territory to be sure. But she may or may not be convinced of that though. You might try sharing this “Affair Proofing” article with her and see if she cares to have a conversation about it. Remember that she would need to come to a realization on her own of the short-sightedness of holding onto such relationships for her to do something about it.

This issue is one of the reasons I haven’t been a big fan of social networking sites, such as Facebook, etc. They may have many advantages, but my concern is first for marriages, and I can totally see how Satan uses something “harmless” such as a website “to connect people” as an easy snare for the inevitable times when marriages struggle. When it is so easy to access old flames and old feelings of romance, it’s nothing but a recipe for disaster especially given the inevitable ups and downs of marriage. But that’s sort of a separate “soapbox” issue…! : )

I wish you well in your efforts to reasonably share your concerns and to help your sister consider choices that will have a more positive long-term effect on her marriage.