Okay – on to the serious stuff you posted. Let me sum it up in a word: “Wow!” Your church and mine are on the same page here, as far as I can tell. As a slight aside, I wonder how a gay or lesbian couple might respond to God’s first communication with mankind “Go forth and multiply.” Apparently they think that command doesn’t apply to them because if it did they’d have no good response. I suppose they’d say “Well, we can’t because of how you made us!” but that’s not a discussion that this forum was designed for and so I’ll drop it.

But, yes, it is a signficant issue today, i.e. whether to have children or not to have children. Perhaps for most husbands and wives the issue isn’t whether to have children or not to have children but HOW MANY children to have, and how to space them out. My personal opinion (I’m big on these, I know) is that many couples today (and yes, Catholics included) limit their family size not for the reasons our churches say is acceptable but, rather for comfort/convenience reasons. Most of my friends first-homes were as nice as the homes with which their parents ended. Most of my friends have two incomes and two new(er) cars in the driveway. I’ve never enjoyed two full time incomes through two marriages. I’m not trying to brag or point fingers but just to say that I know couples who choose certain lifestyles conducive to rearing families and not accumulating so much “stuff”. I also see other couples have a child, maybe two children, and then seem quite satisfied with their one or two children and end up with a lot of worldly goods.

Certainly only God can judge who was being selfish vs. who was being selfless. Clearly our two chruches seem to be in agreement that it is a blessing to have children and that, other issues previously mentioned notwithstanding they should be welcomed into a couples lives.

I’m not sure where this leaves us except that I think we’re on the same page as far as our beliefs. May we practice what we believe for, if we don’t then that begs the question of if we really believed it, why didn’t we do it? Why didn’t we live our lives according to our beliefs?

Coming back to the core issue. Assuming a couple is going to have sex and does NOT want to conceive, how does one do this? It seems that your church would be on the same page as my church but I believe that my church is a bit more defined in its position (openly endorsing fertility-awareness methodology). For me, some telling words that you shared about your church’s teaching were that it was against your church’s teachings “artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children…” I can tell you, and this is no big secret, many “good Catholics” disagree with this position within the Catholic Churches teaching. That is to say that many, if not most(?) Catholics don’t practice fertility awareness methodology. I should emphasize that that is just my personal guess, nothing more. I would hope that I’m wrong but I’d also be surprised, albeit happily, if I was.

And how does one cope with the forced abstinence required by the church’s teaching? It is tough, at least from the man’s perspective. Although, given my current situation I long for the “good old days” where sex would at least be on the horizon and not off the map.

We should always thank God for the challenges he places in our lives. I’ve tried to thank him for this forced abstinence but I don’t do it well or often. Maybe though I’m learning to control the sexual animal within me by having this forced upon me. Right now, and for who knows how long, I am forced to be celibate. Sex is not an option. Maybe if I had the sex I wanted I’d not learn to grow past my own desires. I suspect there’s more than a small amount of truth in that logic.

I’ll quit rambling. Thank you for your sharings, morguerat. You seem very learned.

Blessings.

I suspect you are playing with me (hence the winking smiley face) but in case there are other readers who may not understand the proper application of statistics I just want to emphasize that the correct analysis of the “95 percent” would be that 95 percent of the people who use one of the fertility awareness methods can have sex twice a week and not conceive at all (assuming that was their goal). So, for those couples the method would be 100 percent effective. It’s that other five percent that would experience the unexpected pregnancy.

The real issue here though, as I see it, is that if a couple was having sex twice a week there’s almost no likelihood that they’ll have ever seen this website!

Thus, on the family questions, if we limit our families because we are self-centered or materialistic, we will surely develop a character based on selfishness. As the scriptures make clear, that is not a description of a celestial character. I have found that we really have to analyze ourselves to discover our motives. Sometimes superficial motivations and excuses show up when we do that.

But, on the other hand, we need not be afraid of

studying the question from important angles—the

physical or mental health of the mother and father, the parents’ capacity to provide basic necessities, and so on. If for certain personal reasons a couple prayerfully decides that having another child immediately is unwise, the method of spacing children—discounting possible medical or physical effects—makes little difference. Abstinence, of course, is also a form of contraception, and like any other method it has side effects, some of which are harmful to the marriage relationship.

First Presidency—David O. McKay, Hugh B. Brown,

N. Eldon Tanner

“We seriously regret that there should exist a sentiment

or feeling among any members of the Church

to curtail the birth of their children. We have been

commanded to multiply and replenish the earth

that we may have joy and rejoicing in our posterity.

“Where husband and wife enjoy health and vigor and are free from impurities that would be entailed upon their posterity, it is contrary to the teachings of the Church artificially to curtail or prevent the birth of children… “However, we feel that men must be considerate of their wives who bear the greater responsibility not only of bearing children, but of caring for them through childhood. To this end the mother’s health and strength should be conserved and the husband’s consideration for his wife is his first duty, and self control a dominant factor in all their relationships”

(letter to stake presidents, bishops, and mission presidents, 14 Apr. 1969).

President David O. McKay

“Love realizes his sweetest happiness and his most divine consummation in the home where the coming of children is not restricted, where they are made most welcome, and where the duties of parenthood are accepted as a co-partnership with the eternal Creator.

“In all this, however, the mother’s health should be guarded. In the realm of wifehood, the woman should reign supreme” (Gospel Ideals, 469).

Elder Ezra Taft Benson

“The world teaches birth control. Tragically, many of our sisters subscribe to its pills and practices when they could easily provide earthly tabernacles for more of our Father’s children. We know that every spirit assigned to this earth will come, whether through us or someone else. There are couples in the Church who think they are getting along just fine with their limited families but who will someday suffer the pains of remorse when they meet the spirits that might have been part of their posterity. The first commandment given to man was to multiply and replenish the earth with children. That commandment has never been altered, modified, or cancelled. The Lord did not say to multiply and replenish the earth if it is convenient, or if you are wealthy, or after you have gotten your schooling, or when there is peace on earth, or until you have four children.

Sorry to be so late in getting back to you but work has kept me gone and busy. Thank you for your post.

Yes, as I have stated earlier I am a Catholic and my position is the same as the Church’s. It hasn’t always been but I’m coming around to it mostly because I’m tired of ignoring the facts, the data, and the logic behind it all.

The difference between Natural Family Planning (“NFP”) and every other form of birth control is that NFP uses no artificial drugs, pills, patches, chemicals, or anything other than the woman’s body to determine when she is not only NOT fertile but also when she is fertile as well. I state it this way because many couples who were previously unable to conceive using other methods or training have done so with NFP. And, yes, you are correct, if a Catholic couple of child-bearing age were to marry and to use NFP to totally prevent pregnancy, then, baring serious medical issues, that would go against the Church’s teaching.

I should mention that the term “NFP” is a bit broad. These methods are sometimes called fertility awareness-based methods. There are five different types of NFP: The Standard Days Method, The TwoDay Method, The Ovulation Method, The Basal Body Temperature Method, and the Lactational Amenorrhea Method. What they all have in common is that they involve the study of what the woman’s body is doing and what it is telling her via different ways of monitoring such things as her cervical mucus or her body temerpature. When used exactly as shown these range from 95% to 99.5% effective. In practical use (where the users either weren’t taught the methods properly or, I believe, the users had intercourse on a day where the method said to obstain, the results range from 80 – 98%.

It seems funny – we all claim to be Christians, and we are, but oftentimes when it comes to our bodies we feel like the pharmacutical industry needs to “fix” the “problem” of fertility. I’ve always agreed with the old axiom “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” A woman’s body changes in many ways during the month and through the use of NFP her body gives off certain signs or signals that let her know when she’s fertile and also, when she’s not fertile.

Of course the thing with NFP is that it involves abstinence. How much? It depends upon which method is used and also it depends upon the woman and her cycle. In ninth-grade health class (way back when – I don’t know what they’re teaching now) they make it sound like a woman’s period arrives every 28 days exactly. In the real world… Well, just ask your wives. You already know where I’m headed on that one.

Anyway, our society creates birth control devices from the standpoint of this: fertility is a problem and it must be dealt with. Funny, I thought it was a gift from God. But no, our society largely treats it like a problem and you can “correct” with pills, patches, shots, etc.

So, going back to one of your points, Sir John, and I hope you already got this: with an effectiveness rating of 95-99.5 percent you can see that NFP is NOT the least effective method of controling pregnancy. Now, when it dips down to the 80 percentile range you can bet that most of the time the couple just flat out gets lazy and doesn’t follow the method. Perhaps you know the scenario: They guy is feeling amorous, he puts pressure on his wife, who knows, maybe it’s even their anniversary and he feels he’s owned something special, and the wife gives in. In my unofficial opinion that’s the number one cause of why NFP drops down in the effectiveness rating. I should also mention that NFP is the only method that requires the couple to both engage in it. Think of the pill – the woman does that. Same with the patch, a shot, the morning-after pill, etc. And, for the guy, well, he’s the only one that puts on the condom, right? And yes, I know that there’s such a thing as a female condom but I’m talking about most couples.

You had mentioned “pulling out”. A) that’s risky because of pre-ejaculate, and B) that is not open to life. Think about it from this perspective: Did God create the human body? If your answer was “No” then for all practical intents and purposes we have no conversation. But, I believe that you believe that the answer is “Yes, God is the designer of the body.” Well, then, did he design any mistakes or flaws into an image made in His own likeness? Of course not. So then, following that train of thought, if a woman’s fertility cycle is from God then isn’t it best that we strive to study it and understand it. I’ve been completely amazed at how many women I’ve known that seem to know less about their bodies than I did. I suppose it’s because I’m analytical by nature but seriously why wouldn’t a woman want to understand completely when she is capable of conceiving and when she is NOT capable of conceiving? That one baffles me.

For me, condoms are a lie. Condoms are like saying “I give you all of me… except one little thing.” That “one little thing” is a big thing in reality or people wouldn’t go to so much work not to share it.

And, as for all of the things like the pill and the patch and the other things – here’s the dirtly little secret: Most of them are abortifacients – that is to say that they cause spontaneous abortions to occur. Many people who abhor abortions think that the pill is safe and does no harm. They need to realize that the pill can cause spontaneous abortions.

Okay, back to some of the rest of your questions. No, it is NOT immoral to NOT have sex at least monthly after your married. Even the Holy Scriptures says that couples should be apart for a time to devout themselves to prayer.

I’ve revealed part of my wife’s physical limitations and here’s another part. She believes, based on the condition of her body that if she were to conceive that she may never walk again. A number of different physician’s from different countries have told her “I wouldn’t have kids if I was you.” because of her medical condition. So, when she sees couples who have large families (think Catholic stereotypes here) and she knows that they’re using NFP she just shuts down. For her the risk, even it it’s two percent is not worth it. Now never mind that these couples may have wanted large families – it just makes her nervous.

The best analogy I can come up with is this: If you lay a 2″ X 10″ board on the ground I can walk on it, jump on it, do handstands on it or whatever you ask me to do. Now, take that exact same board and put it 100 feet off of the ground. Mount it securely on something and let there be no wind. It would be hard for me to crawl, clnging for dear life, across that same board. Why? Well, the answer is obvious – the perceived risk is far, far greater. Now you can tell me about how I ran across that same board a hour ago and that it’s just as study now as it was then but I still won’t be able to walk on it when it’s 100 fee up in the air like I did when it was on the ground. Fear is based on perception, whether that perception is grounded in fact or not. Same thing with ice-fishing. I’ve driven a car across a lake. Some people would never even walk across the lake even when the ice is 36″ thick even though it literally could support a school bus!

I know I’m rambling but I hope I got my point across. I like everything about NFP but it does require abstinence and in our society that’s not something that’s rewarded. It seems “bad” to come home and have great news for your wife (a big promotion, for example) and you can’t go out, have a nice dinner and then end the day having a nice sexual relationship with your spouse because you use NFP. On the other hand it shows complete respect for your wife, who she is – her whole person, not just certain parts of her and that she is worth the wait.

If you still have more questions on NFP I would suggest talking to a Catholic Priest and/or going to a site like the Institute for Reproductive Health at Georgetown University, for starters. Or, look in your local phonebook. I live in a very small town and there’s an NFP office less than 20 miles from where I live.

I’m going to run for now, Sir John. As always, I hope I didn’t cause any offense.

I’m slowly coming to grips with my situation. I would have to say that it must be the work of the Holy Spirt because if you would have told me that this is where I’d be not too long ago I would have said “No way!”

Peace be with you and have a very blessed Christmas.

You are correct in that nocturnal emissions do waste sperm but, as you also correctly pointed out it is beyond the conscious control of the man and therefore the man is guilty of no sin. It is a natural act of the body (a “normal biological function” as you put it). I myself find that it takes about five months of not having an orgasm to have a nocturnal emission. And, if I remember correctly from various articles I’ve read, small amounts of sperm exit the body in ones urine from time to time but again this is beyond the control of the man and so no sin is committed.

As for women having similar dreams, yes, I’ve known those that have told me as much but it is of no issue, i.e. there is no sin in such because it is beyond the woman’s conscious control just like the man who has a wet dream.

I hope that explains my beliefs clearly.

Thank you for your time.

I have heard that the Catholic church was against birth control in general but I have not known details. I hope you don’t mind if I ask some questions regarding this topic. I feel like a know much more about Catholic teachings on this topic from your post, but it also raised many questions for me.

Is your position essentially the same as Catholic teachings?

I don’t understand the difference between “Natural Family Planning” and other forms of birth control. I think that I know the difference in application, but as a principle of morality, I don’t understand the difference. If the basic principle is to be “open to life” the intent of natural family planning is to avoid pregnancy the same as condoms or the pill.

Granted, natural family planning is generally regarded as the least effective method of birth control. Is that the difference? Is it ok to try to avoid conception as long as you don’t try very hard?

Is it the fact that Natural Family Planning does not use any man made tools? I did not think that was an important consideration in Catholicism, because I thought that “pulling out” was considered bad and is completely natural.

Is this simply a teaching that should be accepted on faith and there is not a solid explanation why Natural family planning is OK and all other forms of birth control are bad? I have several of those that I believe and practice and hope for greater understanding in the future.

Also, abstinence is the most effective form of birth control. If you don’t have sex, you certainly are not open to the potential of creating new life. Is it immoral to not have sex at least monthly after you are married?

I apologize if these questions seem silly or disrespectful. It seems crucial to understand the details of the Catholic teachings on this subject in order to discuss your situation in a meaningful way.

I admire tremendously your dedication to doing God’s will. I feel confident that our loving God will bless you in your efforts.

Sir John

There is also evidence that many women experience similar dream-time arousal and orgasm.