Open Forum Discussions
August 14th, 2007 by Laura M. Brotherson
Hello Everyone!
I wanted to create this post as an area where people can post their own questions and comments and receive responses from all of you — beyond what few comments I may be able to provide due to time constraints. I want to make it easy for everyone to post and/or respond to the questions and comments people have about the topics of marriage, sex, intimacy and related parenting issues. This is the place to build a community of people who want to learn how to strengthen marriages and families!
Some questions have been posted on our Comments Page that I will move over to this section to open up the discussion more easily. I can’t always respond to each question, yet I know there are many of you out there who may have a moment or two to share your thoughts in response to any questions that get posted here.
This section also makes it easier for questions or topics to be discussed that I may not have yet addressed. As you reply to various comments below this post it will thread the comments to make it fairly easy to follow the discussions.
I hope this section will be helpful to you. I know from your many personal emails and the conversations we’ve had at various speaking or engagements that there is an army of intelligent and intuitive people seeking to strengthen their marriages intimately. This can be a valuable forum to harness the power of your questions and insights, in addition to the comments you make to my regular posts.
Please continue to be attentive to the tone of your posts, so that we can maintain an atmosphere of reverence and respect for the sanctity of sexuality in marriage.
This entry was posted on Tuesday, August 14th, 2007 at 9:30 pm and is filed under Misc. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
Subject: Lidocaine
Comments: Quick question. i have only read a few chapters of this book becasue i am only 23 and single. My question like the subject states is about KY with lidocaine. to me that would almost seem pointless becasue lidocaine is a numbing agent and if used wouldnt that numb the nerves and other sensual areas thus no pleasure. i know that some couples use it because of the small lacerations that the females get during there first few times, but doesnt that defeat the purpose of having sex. (i know that before sex she has to be prepared via foreplay.) i mean wouldnt she want to feel the experience of sexual pleasure for the first time, or am i missing something. Like i said i have not read the entire book because im single and being my age and single kinda sucks (dont need any more temptation than there all ready is.) so any type of informative answer that could help me would be nice. thanx and i hope to hear from someone.
Subject: Dirty Talk During “intimacy” and porn issues
Comments: I have read your book and think it has wonderful ideas about how to address issues with intimacy. Unfortunately my husband does not want to read the book and now I don’t know how to address a huge challenge in our relationship. I am 37, have 7 children, 20, 17, 15, 13, 12, 9 years and the youngest 8 months and have been with my second husband 16 years. Intimacy with him was always difficult, as he would reject me very often.
About 4 years into our marriage I found out he was interested in pornograpy (his father used to have it all around the house), and that was part of the reason for his rejections. After a few years of arguments, dicussions, counseling (I was raised a Catholic and totally hate it) and 2 more kids, I agreed to some compromises as to what I would do and say when we were intimate, never quite feeling it was right, but thinking it would keep my marriage somehow safe from that filth.
We just had a baby 8 months ago and although he was wonderful thru my pregnancy, he is now only interested in having sex with me and not about spending couple time, cuddling, talking, or doing anything the two of us alone. In return I am not able to have sexual intimacy for the fear that he’s only interested in sex, and he talks dirty to me all the time the few times he is having sex with me, which makes me feel even worse and more uncomfortable. I believe he is into pornography again due to his behaviour and don’t know how to address it. I would love to be with him feeling is right to be with him, the way God inteded for us to be as a couple. How can I address it? Who can I talk to?
In response to:”Dirty Talk” post
Comments: This is a tough issue. I hate to sound like I’m know it all or that we’re in Sunday School…but PRAYER can really change things. Patience Repentence Act upon promptings You are a child of God Eternal perspective Remember to have faith…God is aware of your situation! The brethren have addressed the issues of pornography so much…my heart aches for you and I pray that you will find some kind of direction. “Be Still and know that I Am”
Subject: Selflessness
Comments: As a recent topic at church was selfless service, I have been thinking about how this applies to marriage and hope to get some input from others on this topic. Specifically, is it ever “ok” to think about “my needs”? If I feel like my needs are not being met, is it safe to say that I probably need to focus more on my spouse and serving others and less on myself? If my spouse is perfectly content with status quo in our relationship but I feel that it is lacking and needs attention and effort, is it selfish of me to try to involve my spouse in improving our relationship? If I desire greater levels of all types of intimacy in our marriage but my wife does not, is that selfish of me, and what course of action should I take? I appreciate any comments….
One common misconception is that thinking of one’s own needs at any time to any degree is “selfish.” Perhaps the best response to this notion is from C.S. Lewis, who pointed out that a little bit of appropriate self-concern can go a long way toward preventing built-up resentment and grudges, whereas excessive “selflessness” actually focuses one’s own attention on sacrifices being made and favors which seem to be owed in return for this selflessness. I find that if I communicate my own needs to my wife in a kind, loving way without making demands, then she responds in a positive way. For years she too saw no need for sexual intimacy, as she thought that we were doing pretty well in other areas of our marriage. However, as my bishop pointed out, if the vital sexual arena is lacking, then it is a general sign that other aspects are in trouble as well, specifically communication. I don’t consider myself qualified to address that element, but with regard to thinking of your needs, it is better to address that directly with your spouse than to try to ignore it, as it never goes away but continues to lurk under the surface and contribute to all manner of resentments. It is better to have just enough appropriate self-concern so that you can confront the related issues than to bend over backwards in the interest of a forced, artificial “selflessness” which will, most likely, only escalate the tensions already present. Laura’s book is a tremendous help in this regard. God bless.
Laura’s Reply to “Subject: Selflessness” post dated 8-14-07
Certainly it is okay to think about our needs, it’s just that when we are in that line of thought we tend to stay in a state of dissatisfaction and longing, instead of in a state of appreciation for the many good things our spouse IS doing. The more we can focus on the good things about our spouse the more we will see good things from our spouse.
If you feel like your needs are not being met, certainly it is helpful to share that valuable information with your spouse. For example, you could say, “Honey, I am feeling a bit unloved in our relationship. I don’t know how to explain how important physical intimacy is to me. It just seems to be the most powerful way for me to feel that you love me even though you do many other wonderful things for me.”
If you can then discuss it, great! If these discussions never go anywhere then I’d suggest getting someone to help–like a counselor, either going to God himself with these issues or a human-form counselor might be helpful. Don’t let your resentment build, but be wise in how you approach it.
Improving your relationship is all about how you go about it. If you go about it with a spirit of discontent then it will feel like pressure and that your spouse is not good enough or doing enough for you. That’s hard for any spouse to receive. If you can go about it without any emotional attachment to the outcome then go for it! It can be a fun new adventure for you both to read a book together or try something new, etc. It’s all in the spirit of how you do it, and the intention behind it.
It’s not selfish of you to want more intimacy and connection with your spouse. The selfishness comes from a focus on what YOU need to the exclusion of what your spouse might need. By all means, keep the positive communication flowing on the subject, but keep your focus on what you can do to be more loving as a husband.
You might also check out the following Q&A and article that address these subjects:
Q&A — “How to Get My Spouse to Read Your Book”
http://www.strengtheningmarriage.com/qa.php#QA1
ARTICLE–”How do I get my spouse to change?”
http://deseretbook.com/mormon-life/news/story?story_id=7640.
Terry and Laura,
Thank you both for your input on the balance of selflessness and needs. This continues to be a topic that fascinates me. When I think about the Savior, it seems to me that there is no evidence in the scriptures that He had needs or ever thought about them. He only seemed to care about helping, blessing, serving, and doing the will of the Father. He was in a position to give and didn’t seem to need to receive. Perhaps few if any of us will be able to obtain a similar level of selflessness in mortality. Possibly as our focus begins to shift more to our spouse’s needs, our spouse will likewise do the same.
I also think about the creation. The scriptures tell us that after Adam was created, God said that it was not good for man to be alone, and Eve was created as a companion and help meet for Adam. So I think it is safe to say that man “needs” woman and that woman “needs” man. Neither alone are whole, but together they can strengthen, help, and bless one another, and together they can whole and complete in a way that they could not on their own. I love this concept of synergy in marriage.
I really think the key is to maintain a balance and to have open communication. Ideally, both husband and wife are “keyed in” to each other’s interests and needs and both make it a high priority to love and take care of one another. Hopefully this is the type of marriage that we all strive for. Elder and Sister Hafen’s article on Equal Partners in the August 2007 Ensign addresses this.
Thank you both again for your comments and insights. I hope that others will contribute as this has the potential to be an excellent source for sharing and learning.
Balancing your needs in marriage is tricky. Most of us learn that ’selflessness’ and sacrifice are how we should deal with what we crave from our spouses - whether is is affection, conversation, help around the house or sex. I always felt I was just expected to be happy with what I had and count my blessing. I felt I had no right to feel unfulfilled in any way. Trying to ignore those feelings doesn’t make them go away. Patience is indeed required, but total sublimation of one’s emotional needs is not healthy. If there is a hole in your heart when it comes to your marriage, throwing a tarp over it and covering it with plastic flowers still leaves the hole. Going without what you crave in your marriage is ‘noble’ and stoic but also very dangerous. It leaves you incredibly vulnerable to alloew those needs to be met elsewhere and usually inappropriately. If nothing else, failing to meet each other’s needs robs you both of the true oneness fitting of a celestial marriage. Check out Willard Harley’s site on this idea. He wrote the book His Need, Her Needs. I think you’ll find it really clicks. Marriage Builders
I would like to know if I shouild tell my husband about past sexual incidents that have been resolved with church leaders. I fear that he may totally reject me if he knew but wonder if he should know. I have a hard time forgetting it myself let alone forgiving myself.
Cindy,
I told my husband about past sexual incidents before we were married, and he was very understanding about it. I just wanted him to know about it, so I wouldn’t feel like I was hiding something from him. He was a little hurt at first, but we have a great marriage now, and it doesn’t cause any problems. It was a long time ago, and it’s in the PAST. But not all men are the same, as we all know! I am glad I told him though, and have never regretted telling him.
If you have resolved it with church leaders, and gone through the repentance process, you shouldn’t have feelings of guilt anymore. Please learn to forgive yourself! You did the right thing by going to the bishop. You can ask your bishop what he thinks about whether you should tell your husband. If it keeps bothering you, just continue to pray about whether or not you should tell him.
From my experience, I’ve been able to forgive myself, but don’t think I’ll ever completely forget about it! I also don’t think it something you HAVE to do, especially since you’ve resolved it w/ the bishop. Good luck, and hope I’ve helped a little bit!
Cindy - that is such a good question. I remember being told specifically by my bishop I never had to tell my future spouse about the stupid things I did when I was a teenager. He told me Christ didn’t remember my sins and I didn’t have to either. This was such bad advice. I should have never kept this from my wife. She should have known everyting about me before me married. Go to www.marriagebuilders.com and read about the Policy of Radical Honesty under Basic Concepts. I’ll think you’ll find it helpful. How wonderful it will feel to know your husband loves you after knowing everything there is to know about you. Share this information with love and care and with the motivation to draw closer to your husband. He may have to adjust to the new information a bit, give him time to do so. But I would tell him.
Cindy,
After 3 kids and almost 20 years of marriage, I found out about my husband’s past. It was hard on me, but I knew he had gone through the repentence process and the Lord had forgiven him and that was good enough for me. I heard it said once the Lord had forgiven you then it is over. Why keep bringing it up. If your spouse finds out on his own, then tell him that the Lord forgave you and it is over and you are no longer that person. However, follow the Spirit. It is a tough decision.
Does anyone out there know the church’s stand on breast implants? It seems so common now, and I learn of more and more LDS women who are having them done! I myself am a 30 year old woman with 3 kids, and with all the running and triathlons I love to do, my body fat has disappeared, but so has my chest! I pretty much look like a 10 year old boy in that area, and it’s embarrassing to be seen in a swim suit. My husband thinks it’s okay if it’s not drastic, like going from A (or smaller, like me) to Double D, and if it would help improve the woman’s self-confidence. He really wants me to get it done. If I did, I wouldn’t want the world to know. I probably wouldn’t even want to tell my family! Has anyone out there had it done, and did you regret it? Has it helped your marriage? Am I just being vain? By the way, Laura, my husband and I LOVE your book! It’s helped us drastically over the past 2 years! Thanks!
As far as i know that dont have one. I think this is just one of those things that is a personal choice. The most i have heard about anything to do with cosmetic surgery is dont go over board and dont make it a worldy thing. Having one cosmetic surgery is fine. its when you want more and more and all you care about is yourself with your looks and spend 99% of your time at the gym and forget about your family becasue your to busy trying to look good. thats when it becomes an issue when you start to think more and more about yourself rather than your husband and family. there is a fine line sometimes with this. i know a few women who have had this done. the only down fall is that they have been telling the girls they teach in young womens to maybe think about it for them selves. if you have implants , people dont have to know. its your body and your business not theres. if they ask then sure you can answer and tell them. i mean i wouldnt mind my wife having it done but there would be a limit just like you stated. i would not want her going around and telling every body “look at me, i just doubled in size.” i would hope that she would keep that between me and her. but if she doesnt have it done oh well. fine by me. i should love her no matter what. but then again im not married. thats my opinion. i think its attractive, what else can i say, im a guy
Tiachap,
on implants & plastic surgery:
I have discussed this extensively with my husband. I don’t want to die, and at the resurrection, my husband see’s me and says, “Oh ya, that’s right you have a flat chest”. Or I go to heaven & God says, I gave you $$ to help others & you could have paid for a missionary to serve…but well instead you spent it all on yourself.
I agree that this is very PERSONAL. Modesty should always be considered…as well as if this could improve your marriage. I live in a state with the highest number of plastic surgeries in the U.S. Not all bad. I was in an accident as a child & my parents paid for plastic surgery for me. I am glad.(Or I might not be married:))My husband was hit by a car when he was 6 years old. He did not have plastic surgery. He still suffers from the skeletal pains of it all. He has completely forgiven the drunk driver, but every other day he looks in the mirror & says that he wishes that each half of his face would match up together. (He uses a lot of humor). Maybe when we die & at the resurrection, I will say, oh, so that’s what you really look like. But the reality is that I love him how he is now, it would be strange to see him without the 6 inch scare on his face.
So I think it is all in your intent. I was sexually abused as a child, and no matter how much therapy (8+yrs)I have done, I have my own personal issues with being flat chested. (I tend to sabotage weightloss for fear of loosing what I have–it’s the first place I loose the weight). Now fortunately for me and my husband, I have overcome a lot (Laura’s book helped the most with the GGS). But this discussion continues. Right now the whole weight & money issue keeps me from persuing…but I would be interested in Laura & Kevin’s opinion. Perhaps over the holidays?
Look, YOU need to have self confidence and self assurance in YOU…a woman’s image is not EVERYTHING, but to say it does not play in, would easily be a lie. As I am not to “lie” to women, our wives would not ask us how they look in their outfit if image was not remotely involved.
If you feel, in YOUR heart, not your husband’s not your kids, that YOUR self esteem and confidence will be built up by having a body which you can feel good about, then I do not see that as being selfish.
You MAY say that about your husband….but I have a hard time, as a man(possibly a dumb man), thinking that there might be a corner of his mind that is VERY glad that you did it. Now he, in his right mind, WILL NEVER lie ERRR tell the truth about that AND you know that!
If he sees this as selfish, then he didn’t take advantage of the situation. I think that this COULD improve the relationship for reasons again that he will never admit to, but do not hold THAT over him, we are visual and we will try to coax you into feeling that we love you for YOU and not for them…but..and listen to this, because for all of the hormones in our bodies, THE TRUTH IS…IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR BREASTS AT ALL!
WE ARE SIMPLY GLAD THAT YOU ARE HAPPY OVERALL AND THAT STEMS WITH YOU BEING HAPPY WITH YOURSELF!
people can disagree with me wholeheartedly, but I do not say things to be PC or “safe”…we are plenty PC and quiet in the church when it comes to sensitive issues…which is why we are where we are.
Cindy,
my mom once told me that holding the truth to yourself is not lying. But at the same time i can see how you feel becasue i feel the same way. I would want my girlfriend to tell me if she had. i dont really know how to word this so bare with me. If it sounds like im being selfish im sorry im not trying to be. To me i would rather marry a woman who has repented of those situations because that means she knows how to use the atonement for her and is willing to change and become a better person. People make mistakes but thats what the atonement is for. if she has taken care of it then more power to her for putting forth the faith and doing what she knows to be right. I do not want to marry a complacent woman who says “well i slipped but its ok i can take care of it later or when ever i have time, its not like its that big of a deal.” to me that means that she doesnt want to change and doesnt really care about it at all. It always makes me proud when i hear stories like yours because it gives me hope that people do care and are willing to change and use the power of Gods atonement for themselves and feel better and become a better person. stories like yours and tiachap are very important stories. I know i have made my fair share of mistakes but im grateful for examples like you and tiachap and others who have been through alot in life and are willing to share it. So i congratulate you in overcoming one of the hardest things in life. To me i would want to know, yes at first i would be hurt but then i would realize that you know how to use the power of the atonement and that would make me feel really happy. I would love to know that my wife is human and makes mistakes also.
Do you recommend the BLISS computerized game for couples and if so what do others have to say about it as well?
Rob
We have enjoyed BLISS the one time we played it.
You can download and try it out for an hour. That is what we did and it was fun.
I enjoyed it (I am the higher drive spouse and the more adventurous spouse) because it opened up new activities that we had never done before. I think it was good for my wife too because it was somehow easier to do some things when “told to” by the game.
I guess the best recommendation I can give is that when we were done with our hour free demo, my wife said it would be OK for me to go ahead a spend the money to buy it for real. She enjoyed it (or perhaps enjoyed me enjoying it) enough to spend the money on it.
It would be interesting I think to see if someone would write a series of “LDS centered actions” for the game. Some I thought of might be:
“Tell your spouse you love them in your mission language” (if you went foreign speaking mostly).
“Tell your spouse about a favorite memory from the temple when you got married”
“Tell your spouse about your feelings about eternity”
Anyway, I’d at least download it and take a peak at it. It took my wife nearly a year to come around to being willing to play. We discussed it, she thought about it for a few months to get up the courage, we planned to play a couple of times, and things got in the way, but we did actually play, and had a good time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bliss_(game)
Go here for more info on the game. It might help you decide if you want to try it out or not..
http://www.gamersmark.com/reviews/view/714
Be sure to check out the screen shots of this game. Just click on the link and it will give you a full review and images to see if its something you want..
Subject: “Childhood sexual abuse” comment from website
Date: September 25 2007
I have been considering purchasing this book but have a few questions concerning its relevance concerning my wife and my particular issues. My wife was sexually abused as a child from the age of 7 through age 13, by the significant male relationships in her life (father, grandfather, brother, mother’s live-in boyfriend).
We were married when she was 19 and I was 21. When she was 28, after nine years of marriage and three children, she had a nervous breakdown when she regained the suppressed memories of these traumatic events in her life. We spent a good portion of the next two years slowing rebuilding her ’sexual self’, allowing her to have complete control and including a long period of no relations.
She still to this day has a hard time discussing sexuality and our sexual relationship. She has difficulty having orgasms and has complained of still feeling ‘disconnected’ during sex. She talks at times about talking with a therapist about these issues but does not push forward because of the feelings she has.
It has been 15 years since she regained her memories but during the majority of the time since then, she has not felt like our sex life is all that it could be for her. I rarely try to push her, given her experience, anything that makes her feel out of control is out of the question. Personally, given her experience I think that the fact that she want to have sex 2-3 times a month and usually orgasms at least two thirds of the time I think she has come a long way and I am very proud of her. However, I would like to make the experience as fulfilling for her as she would like it to be.
How relevant is the material in “And They Were Not Ashamed” or would another book or therapy be more appropriate?
In response to “Child Sexual Abuse”:
I experienced similar issues (we are all different). This book helped me a ton! I like how much it helped me to focus on the marriage aspect of intimacy. I did however, go through a lot of therapy & every once in a while I frequent LDS Social Services. I am very glad that we have this resource to heal our hearts and homes. Having Brotherson’s book to go to, helped to open up many avenues and comunication between my husband and I. For the first time EVER, I am open to talk about it. I am open to change. I have talked to friends about intimacy (not sharing intimate details). I have been blessed with a fantastic husband…who is gently rewarded often for his patience with me in this area. Be faithful to your covenants and strength WILL come.
Our level of friendship and intimacy has increased a hundred fold. Prayer and fasting helped so much. I asked for a priesthood blessing of healing, for this area. Let me tell you, Heavenly Father was first my father, and he desires for all of us to be happy. I am sad for the things that should not have happened to me…but because I have prayed for the healing power of the atonement…I am beyond grateful for those horrible experiences. Trials can make us better people if we let them, and Heavenly Father does not love us any less.
The tricky part is allowing your wife the “control” to change as she is ready. May you be blessed…this trial can help you too. Journal. Journal. Journal.
re: masturbation
Recently, I have been examining the issue of masturbation and the guilt/shame complex that is instilled in people (especially youth) by many Christian/LDS religions. I have read about many LDS young men who become depressed and even commit suicide because of the shame they feel regarding masturbation.
There are contradictory messages out there. Doctors, counselors say that masturbation is okay, normal. Some doctors even prescribe doing it to men who have prostate problems. However, churches say that it is a sin. Laura’s book suggests self-exploration (masturbation) to learn about one’s body, what feels good, orgasm, etc. The mixed messages are very confusing.
I have researched and I have not found a specific rule or guideline about masturbation in the LDS’ church handbook of instructions. I researched the LDS gospel library and only found a few articles from a few previous prophets on the subject, and I was uncomfortable with the connection it made between masturbation causing homosexuality. Also, all of the articles and information I found were directed to youth only. What does the church say about masturbation and married individuals? Is it okay if it is for the purposes of improving marital intimacy as Laura proposes in her book?
It also doesn’t make sense that we are encouraged to teach our children about their amazing bodies, but we shame any normal sexual feelings. We know that the majority of young men and men masturbate, so why do we instill such shame? This seems to perpetuate the idea that anything sexual is taboo and wrong, the negative sexual conditioning that Laura writes about in her book. Please comment.
Ricky - I can give you my opinion on the various questions you raise about masturbation. I can’t of course answer for the church but i can share my opinion and the information I’m aware of with you.
First - why do we shame? OR Should be shame? Of course we shouldn’t shame our children or anyone about anything. Sharing the Lord’s counsel on a given behavior or choice should be done with clarity but compassion. Warning and instruction seem appropriate. Shame and guilt should not enter the equation.
My take on masturbation - engaging in any sexual relations with anyone with whom we are not legally and lawfully wedded is a breach of the law of chastity. This would include oneself. If we accept that sex is meant to bond a husband and spouse together as well as procreate - masturbation serves neither purpose.
I think sex between a husband and wife could include masturbation while the other spouse caresses and hold the other. I also feel like phone sex is ok between a husband and wife. But, personally any solo activity where both parties are not present and engaged breaches the law of chastity.
Just my opinion.
“I think sex between a husband and wife could include masturbation while the other spouse caresses and hold the other”
I agree. Now if the wife were to do this on her own and stimulate herself with out her husband there, thats were the issue starts. And if a man stimulates himself while she is gone, that causes problems also. To me i think its meant that the wife is supposed to stimulate and cares the mans intimate areas and the man stimulate the wifes intimate areas and tease and have fun.
The reason way masturbation is a problem in the church is becasue 99% of the time masturbation and pornography go hand in hand. If you look at porn then most likely you masturbate. Most people that look at porn will get aroused simply by just sitting in front of a turned off computer and will actually masturbate and orgasm in front of a turned off computer. thats how bad it is. Its also very very addicting. orgasm releases alot of oxytocin thus causing a euphoric high and thus becomes addicting. when its outside of marriage and you achieve orgasm on purpose, thats when guilt comes into play becasue those orgasmic feelings are meant for marriage between husband and wife. Most of the time depression and emotional anxiety will cause people to look at porn becasue when they masturbate to it, its a emotional escape for a few hours. After that few hours has subsided you think to your self “WOW” that felt good. after the afterglow and oxytocin have gone away the person starts to feel guilty and think what have i done, i cant let my wife or parents no about this. so then they promise themselves that they wont do it again. Then all of a sudden they have a bad day at school or work OR a parent yells at them. They are scared and dont know what to do and need an emotional escape and then they sit at the computer watch a few pornographic movies and then they masturbate and orgasm to feel free from the emotional bondage and then they become and addict over time.
BUT the feelings you get before your married of wanting to have sex are fine and dandy. You just have to bridal them so that they dont take over your main thought process. Thats what im dealing with now becasue im a single 23 year old, and im a guy for that matter and its 10 times as hard being a male with these feelings. I am very attracted to women and i find my self everyday excited for marriage. These feelings are given to us so that we have a desire to get married and to have sex and to please and play with our spouse to become closer with each other.
I have a book on the whole psychology of pornography and what it does to the mind.
Confronting pornography. Deseret book has it.
“Most people that look at porn will get aroused simply by just sitting in front of a turned off computer and will actually masturbate and orgasm in front of a turned off computer.”
This is simply not true. I cannot reiterate how incorrect this thought process is. this has never happened to me, not at all, not in my life. And YES, I would know.
WHY MEN WATCH PORN…well to preface, they haven’t read Laura’s book and neither has their wife. Because there are plenty of tips that help wives in several areas…now THAT aside..NOW…considering they have NOT READ, here are the reasons.
1) Men want sex at the drop of a hat, women actually have to CHOOSE to have sex and because they took care of kids, went to work, did errands etc…they are frequently exhausted and may not be able to do it as often. NOW, MEN CAN accept this as long as we are factored into the picture at least 2 times a week. When she starts to become tired for weeks on end… and the excuse starts working wonders…he may become resentful because his physiology does NOT work in the same way.
2) because of (possible)resentment and physiological needs that men have, they may take care of those needs in order to get it off their mind, go to sleep, AND leave their wives in peace since she is exhausted and they do not have to bother her as they figure she is too tired anyway.
3) She is nauseous of sperm, she feels extremely uncomfortable holding his penis let alone caressing him…ultimately she is sooo reserved sexually, that even his sperm against her skin is uncomfortable. Much of these issues are based on a complete omission of sex education on their parent’s behalf. Because she is unwilling to reciprocate what he does for her, he takes care of himself.
Look, the fact of the matter is, masturbation may be the only “action” that lonely man will receive that WHOLE month. It is not that she is holding sex over him like a weapon, she simply does not like sex. He doesn’t want to deal with getting a divorce and all that is involved and loves his kids way too much to “visit” them or pay child support. So does he coerce her into doing something she doesn’t want to do? No, that is taking her by force and against her will. Or does he simply take care of business and move on in life?
Look, masturbation, IS self abuse, it is selfish by definition. But if a man goes unfulfilled, he will take things into his own hands…literally. Women are JUST as responsible in this as men. It is FAR more taboo, but it happens…and with a frequency that I imagine would shock men. Female masturbation happens every bit as much as male masturbation and nobody says anything about that. They may not buy toys, but they know their bodies too.
Women come after us about masturbation, yet they do it themselves and say nothing. Men take the heat for this and we’re men, so we often overlook it, but we also get scolded for it.
I am NOT condoning pornography OR masturbation because a man’s wife is holding sex over him or avoiding him altogether. I am saying that it happens.. He is lonely, he is sad that his marriage is going the way that it is, and he uses masturbation as a stress release so that THAT is not a key issue and so he can face the next day at least semi-normal.
It is said, to bridal one’s passions. Look, sex is a commandment of marriage, women you KNEW this going in or SHOULD HAVE…the bridaling of passions after 25 years is PLENTY….it is very unfair and selfish that you marry us, then you completely control the situation KNOWING FULL well, that we can have nothing if not you…we cannot masturbate- we can’t have sex…we can’t do any of that and we grow restless and are lonely even in marriage and yet, to no avail, we are simply ignored in the bedroom.
YOU have created the very sex crazed husband that you hate so much. We want it as bad as we do because we do not get it. Ironically, masturbation doesn’t really kill the drive…if not temporarily…
It was said by Dr. Mehmet Oz, that ideally men should have a release 4 times a week to maintain prostate health. Now that means that man is having more than half a month’s sex every month. I am pretty sure MOST men do not see this quota met, nor are they even courageous enough to MAKE that a quota for fear of being insensitive to their wives.
I am pretty sure that MOST women inside and out of the Church laughed him off as being ludicrous for NOT being a woman and NOT being on the receiving side of that love barrage…but..somewhere in the middle should be considered.
Think of it this way…would YOU rather be the reason he is watching porn? Or would you rather be the reason he is watching YOU!
Hi ricky,
This is in response to your 2007-10-02 10:55:26 comment about masturbation. I just want to be very clear that what I am talking about in chapter 12 of my book on self-learning is completely different than masturbation. Masturbation is something you do for self-pleasuring/self-medicating/self-soothing purposes NOT something you do to learn how your body works in order to strengthen your sexual relationship in marriage. (Note the significant difference in intent!) Ideally this kind of intimate learning should occur as part of lovemaking between husband and wife, but for some women it can be helpful and less threatening to figure some things out on her own.
Men and women generally have very different access to and interaction with their genitals growing up, and thus have very different levels of understanding of how their body works sexually. So, please do not put what I am suggesting about self-learning (for those who may need it) in the same category as masturbation. I make it very clear what the differences are between masturbation and what I am suggesting. For one thing self-learning is a one-time or short-term learning process, not an regular habit for selfish purposes. I hope people can clearly see the difference in that section, especially in the intent. Intent is very important.
I do agree with your comments about shame and guilt. Shame is not a good teaching tool nor a good motivator. Certainly a parent would want to redirect a child’s focus if the child is developing a habit of playing with their genitals, but it should be done calmly and kindly to teach that the body is a gift and that the genitals are not playthings. Depending on the age and understanding of the child the parent can go further to explain about the purposes of the body within marriage to provide a positive context.
I think masturbation is more of a temptation for some than others (just like every temptation I guess). I would hope we could find a way to discourage masturbation from becoming habitual or self-serving without resorting to guilt and shame.
What some couples see as “masturbation” within marriage may simply be a part of lovemaking. Some couples employ self-stimulation (for lovemaking purposes) within lovemaking for various reasons. This would be something for the couple to determine if it strengthens or assists in the sexual relationship or something that weakens it.
What about masturbation within marriage during the time a woman is going through the change? Your drive is much higher than her desire are you suppose to bridle your passions or find release. This is masturbation without porn or thoughts of other women. It is definitely self satisfying but it is hard to press your spouse for love when her drive is suppressed and you feel she is doing it just for you and it is not a mutual feeling.
“connection it made between masturbation causing homosexuality”
The reason why this can happen is becasue when the person is masturbating and viewing porn, be it male or female they are watching other men have sex with multiple partners. After a while the persons sub conscience mind starts to say that watching people of the same sex masturbate or have sex with others is ok. Then when they become addicted to porn they need something more than just watching a movie of a man and women having sex. so they start to watch movies that involve more than 2 people including males and females. then when thats not enough they want to see what gay/lesbian pornography is like and start to watch that. Then when thats not enough to feed there passions and addiction they start to watch movies that involve adults and children and then they begin to download child porn and then prison time. its a vicious vicious cycle that is very difficult to get out of BUT it is very possible to get out of it.
I am DEFINITELY not a perfect person…I have seen my fair share (and your share, and his share, etc.) to date, no level of homosexuality has EVER played in…so I disagree with that notion. Maybe that is JUST with me…I am just saying it has not played out that way for me whatsoever.
I understand that the tendency is to never be satisfied and to always want a little more…it is no different than everything we are desensitized to…but we all have our limits to what our stomachs will allow…homosexuality is simply offensive across the board.
I remember when the comment “screw you rocky” was a VERY strong comment back in the day…now that pales in comparison with the things heard in movies.
I have been reading one of the books Laura recommended, Intended for Pleasure by Dr Ed Wheat. It is great! I recommend it for any couple no matter how many years they have been married!
There is a new forum on the topic of LDS Sexuality at http://ldssexuality.com/forum/ Come by and contribute your ideas and experiences.
I am looking for some direction with a problem I am having in my marriage. I have been married for 24 years and I am having a very difficult time allowing myself to be physically touched in the female areas by my husband. It hasn’t always been this way. I learned after 17 years of my hb’s addiction to porn, but that has been resolved with the proper authority and he has refrained for almost 3 years now. I am handicapped and he has mentioned divorce several times over the past 7 years because he feels stifled and mentions wanting to be with someone who can do the things he likes like walk on the beach and play tennis.
I understand and see that I have put up walls to protect myself from hurt, but even though he has repented of the porn, these other statements are said and I feel scared to make myself vulnerable, but at the same time, it is hurting our intimacy. I want things to be better, but in the back of my mind the thought is always there of what he has said and my not feeling secure anymore. He says he loves me and will be with me as things progress (the disability could get worse), but then other things are said and I wonder. I did tell him that if the “d” word is brought up again, be prepared to follow through. Over the summer, he had planned on being gone when I got home from seeing my nephew off for his mission. He said it would be easier that way, but decided that was the coward’s way out.
Any suggestions here? I am seeing a social worker, but I really wish I could see a marriage therapist…even one together. He is very helpful around the house, but then the words sting. Our children are all grown and it should be time for us and I shouldn’t feel like I don’t want him to touch me. Help!!!
Hi yyellowrose,
I’m sorry to hear about your situation. I would certainly continue with seeing a professional (whether alone or as a couple) to work through your challenges as well as you can. Every marriage has tough situations to overcome. Remember that the only one you can change is you, and you’d be amazed how much changing yourself can change your spouse as well. Keep your focus on how you can improve things if you want your marriage to continue. It’s good to see that your husband didn’t take the “easy way out.” I’d take that as a sign that there’s something worth fighting for here. If you’d like additional help you could also consider setting up a phone consultation. I wish you well. Your marriage is worth fighting for!
Subject: Agency in Marriage
Ideally in marriage, both spouses have similar goals and aspirations and are committed to working together. After all, this is the intent of marriage- that husband and wife work together, support one another, strive to understand each other and meet each other’s needs, learn together, progress together, etc. In this case, both spouses exercise their agency to make marriage a priority in their lives and to spend the time and effort necessary to truly become one.
What happens though when one spouse has little or no interest in developing the relationship? The natural tendency in this situation is for the interested spouse to feel rejected, neglected, and unimportant. This begins the downward cycle of collusion where the interested spouse examines everything said or done by the disinterested spouse to support his/her feelings of neglect. Over time, the distance between the spouses increases until there is little if any connection between the two. The interested spouse really cannot change the interests and desires of the disinterested spouse.
How does the interested spouse break this cycle? How can the interested spouse not feel rejected and neglected at the spouse’s disinterest in what is so critical? How can the interested spouse learn to love unconditionally and to not have any feelings of disappointment at the lack of connection in the marriage?
The obvious answer is that the interested spouse simply chooses to love, to not be hurt, etc., but in reality, this proves to be much more easily said than done.
A few years ago, before Laura’s book came along, I read another book on marriage from a Christian author and I thought I remember the book title being “For your Marriage” but I haven’t been able to find it online anywhere. Anyways, the reason I ask is because this book contained a technique for men so that they could enjoy multiple orgasms with their wife, in the same time frame. The technique involves the husband strengthening their PC muscle (as you would for the wife doing Kegel exercises) and using this muscle to block/stop ejaculatory flow while still experiencing the rest of the orgasm (essentially orgasm without ejaculation). Thus the sex drive is not depleted and you can bring yourself to another orgasm with or without ejaculation rather quickly (much like women). I remember being able to succeed with this process but since lovemaking wasn’t going well for us back then, I lost practice of it but now since rejuvinating our marriage with the “And they were not ashamed” book, I was hoping to re-read how to do this technique but now can’t find the book, or I am remembering the title wrong. Has anyone else heard of this technique or know where I can find information on it? Thanks
A book that deals with this is “How to Make Love to a Women all Night Long”, I believe by Lou …
Leaving Father & Mother & Cleaving to Your Spouse
One thing that makes intimacy hard is that sometimes we don’t seem to want to leave our father and mother (brothers and sisters, etc) and cleave to our spouse (Genesis 2:24). We may give higher priority to to them than to our spouse. I struggle with knowing what is the proper relationship with parents and brothers and sisters.
I have noticed that when spouses are having troubles they turn to their parents or siblings which seems to make the troubles worse.
Hi!
I am looking for a charity that educates youth and adults about the serious problems of pornography…maybe even one that passes out pamphlets on anti-pornography. If anyone knows of one or two, will you leave me some information.
Or:
Does anyone want to start one?
THANK YOU!!
My wife and i are both lds and married in the temple. We both have different views on sex and this causes many disagreements. i am very open to learning more about how to improve sex and make things better, but she does not like to research or really read anything to learn more. she is more us just figuring out everything. i struggle because our views on stuff vary so much. I was wandering do you know whether or not sex toys(vibrators, dildos, etc..) for foreplay are okay. also oral sex and playing with yourself in front of your wife as a turn on or vice versa. I am sorry if this is inappropriate or makes you feel uncomfortable. I just seek for us to try new things with each other and improve but at times i just feel as though i am viewed as being bad and inappropriate. I do not think so but perhaps. I have tried researching many church things but have not found any specific answers and no real help. thank you. also if you could provide me some references preferably through the church if you find the answer i would appreciate it.
I doubt you will find anything very specific from the LDS church about your questions. The church teaches us correct principles and we govern ourselves. If your wife is not interested in sex toys and oral sex then I feel you shouldn’t worry about them. Just do your best to enjoy each other and meet each others needs. They may not be wrong but if your wife is not comfortable with them then it may be best to not do or use them.
Dear Acidfire,
You should buy and read Laura’s book…this will answer many of your questions…even if your wife will not read it.
Never ever give up…prayer and open communication are so needed for all of us…Just so you know, no one has a perfect marriage. It is great that you are seeking to overcome your differences and work together in unity and love.
Enjoy the Journey!
Overcoming Inhibitions Together ….
I am interested in people’s suggestions on overcoming inappropriate inhibitions together in a relationship. Specifically, if a couple together identifies that a particular inhibitition is not appropriate, how do you work together to overcome that? I’m looking for “psychology” answers, and personal experience answers.
What I’m getting at is this … Take smoking as an example. If you wanted to help someone quit smoking, there are lots of ideas and suggestions. Some advocate a “cold turkey” or “intervention” approach - Go in and talk all the cigarettes and lighters and stuff and throw them away. Some advocate a more “stepwise” approach - reduce the number of cigarettes each day by one over a 2 month or 6 month period or something like that. Some advocate a “replacement” approach - the nicotine gum and/or patch approach.
Or perhaps another way to look at is phobias. A phobia is a irrational fear that prevents you from being about function normally in your life. If someone has a irrational fear of heights or spiders or the number thirteen, what can you do to help that person? Is a “direct” approach the best way to deal with the phobia? Something like locking the person in a room on the thirteenth floor of a tall building with thirteen big hairy spiders? Or is a stepwise approach better? - going to the first floor of the tall building with just one small spider this week and then the second floor with two spiders the next week?
And then I guess the key question is … how can we apply what has been learned about helping people overcome smoking or phobias to helping our spouses with inhibitations in the bed room?
As a specific example … My dear wife as said on a couple of occations that she thinks the “stuff” that leaks out during foreplay and intercourse is “gross”. Let’s say we decided together that that issue is an “inappropriate inhibitation” for her. How do we work through that together? Is an “direct” or “cold turkey” approach the best way? (and what would be a direct approach there)? Or would something like a stepwise approach be best (and again what would be your suggestions)?
Ok, I don’t know if this is the right section to ask this, but ….
In church today, I was teaching Gospel Essentials on the Law of Chastity. Since we had no investigators and just one recently reactivated member in the class today, as we usually do, the class turns into more of a “how do we teach Gospel Essentials to our kids and friends” rather than “teaching the lesson material to an investigator”.
I thought of a similarity between the Word of Wisdom and the Law of Chastity that we discussed for a while, and I wonder what others here think of this idea.
Often when we teaching or discussing the Word of Wisdom, we focused or stress the “Don’ts” - No coffee, No tea, No smoking, No alcohol. But there really is much more to the Word of Wisdom than the don’ts - there are all the “Dos” as well - Do eats fruits and veggies, Do eat grains, Do eat meat but sparingly, etc. And there is great benefit and blessings to be gained from the “Dos”. The Lord DIDN’T just say “No No No”, but also “Do Do Do”. And if all you focus on is the Don’ts, you are missing many blessings that Heavenly Father has for us.
Now, what about the Law of Chastity? I think that if we think about the Law of Chastity as JUST the “Don’ts”, you will similarly miss out on blessings that are there for the offering from a Loving Heavenly Father. The Law of Chastity, as it usually is stated, implies a “Dos’ Section as well. “No sexual relations outside of legal marriage” implies “DO have sexual relations inside of legal marriage”. And I think, if we did a better job of teaching the Law of Chastity as having both a “DON’Ts” and a “DOs” section, we would have heathlier and more satistifying marriages and a deeper and more fulfilling relationships in marriage.
We talked about that idea a bit in our class - How do we model for or teach our children that there are things that are special and unique in the marriage relationship? How do help teens and young adults focus on the future Dos and not just the present Don’ts.
If someone JUST didn’t smoke or didn’t drink, I guess that is “living the Word of Wisdom”, and similarly JUST not having an affair or prematial sex, is “living the Law of Chastity”. BUT, I think that there is much to learned above and beyond the don’ts. Perhaps the “don’ts” are the “for the least who can be called saints”, while the dos are a higher law somehow. In both cases, the dos are are left much more to our own personal discretion. No one really asks “how much meat did you eat last month” or “Did you have your Fruits and veggies today” to determine if you are living the Word of Wisdom. Similarly, no one really asks “how many times did you have sexual relations with your legally and lawfully married spouse last month” or “Did you fulfill your spouses sexual needs today” to determine if you are living the Law of Chastity. BUT, I think those are questions we ought to be asking ourselves.