Open Forum 1 Discussions
August 14th, 2007 by Laura M. Brotherson
Welcome to our “Open Forum 1″ discussion page! This has been the place (up until June 29, 2009) to post your questions and comments and have an open dialogue about subjects related to marriage, sex, intimacy and parenting. To create new discussion posts please visit our Open Forum 2 discussion page.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
I know from your many personal emails and the conversations we’ve had at various events that there is an army of intelligent and intuitive people who have great insights and are seeking to strengthen their marriages intimately. I hope you will consider yourself a valuable resource in this forum as you share your questions and comments.
Please continue to be attentive to the tone of your posts, so that we can maintain an atmosphere of reverence and respect for the sanctity of sexuality in marriage. I will try to respond as often as I can, given my full plate as a graduate student, but I especially hope you will step up and share your insights as well. This is the place to build a community of people who want to learn and share how to strengthen marriages and families!
Some questions have been posted on our Comments Page that I will move over to this section to open up the discussion more easily. I can’t always respond to each question, yet I know there are many of you out there who may have a moment or two to share your thoughts in response to any questions that get posted here. As you reply to the various comments below this post it will thread the comments in order (newest posts are at the bottom) to make it fairly easy to follow the discussions.
This entry was posted on Tuesday, August 14th, 2007 at 9:30 pm and is filed under Intimacy, Marriage, Misc/Fun, Open Forums, Parenting, Sex. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
In pondering Zoe’s story, I reread Elder Jeffrey R. Holland’s October 1998 conference address, “Personal Purity.” Because this talk was intended to encourage personal righteousness, it does not address specifically the affect of sexual crimes on the innocent victims. However, many of the principles discussed are very applicable. I should caveat that I would be very hesitant to share this talk verbatim with a victim of sexual abuse, because of the significant difference that victims are not guilty of any sin or crime. They are, however, intensely susceptible to debilitating irrational guilt for what was done to them. I would not want to add to those feelings of guilt in any way.
Terribly sad, however is the fact that the victims of such abuse often suffer the same damaging affects as the guilty. It seems that their wounds are often deeper and the affects last even longer. Oh, the heavy price of justice enacted on the unrepentant heads of those who rend the soul of an innocent child of the Almighty God!
Below are several quotes I found particularly poignant. I have paraphrased these quotes to apply them to innocent victims rather than the guilty. You may read the original quotes from the referenced talk.
****
The body is an essential part of the soul. This distinctive and very important Latter-day Saint doctrine underscores why sexual [abuse] is so serious. We declare that one who uses the God-given body of another without divine sanction abuses the very soul of that individual, abuses the central purpose and processes of life, “the very key” to life, as President Boyd K. Packer once called it. In exploiting the body of another–which means exploiting his or her soul–one desecrates the Atonement of Christ, which saved that soul and which makes possible the gift of eternal life. And when one mocks the Son of Righteousness, one steps into a realm of heat hotter and holier than the noonday sun.
…
If [someone pursues] physical satisfaction without the sanction of heaven, [the innocent victim suffers] such spiritual, psychic damage that … both [their] longing for physical intimacy and [their] ability to give wholehearted devotion to a later, truer love [is undermined]. [They] may come to that truer moment of ordained love, of real union, only to discover to [their] horror that what … should have [been] saved has been [stolen], and that only God’s grace can recover the piecemeal dissipation of the virtue [that was] so [callously taken] away.
…
If some of you are carrying such wounds, to you is extended the peace and renewal … available through the atoning sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. In such serious matters the path of [healing] is not easily begun nor painlessly traveled. But the Savior of the world will walk that essential journey with everyone willing to undertake it. He will strengthen you when you waver. He will be your light when it seems most dark. He will take your hand and be your hope when hope seems all you have left. His compassion and mercy, with all their cleansing and healing power, are freely given to all who truly wish complete [healing] and will take the steps that lead to it.
****
Sir John,
Thanks for posting that…it was beautiful. The last quote was especially touching to me. I whole-heartedly know that it is true! ALL things are possible with God’s strength and love.
I went through a lot sexual molestation as a child, but have hardly any memory of it. I have tried everything to remember them (therapists-many), but nothing has helped. I feel like it is negatively effecting my marriage. I have a difficult time being intimate with my hubby because I don’t like being touched in many ways for some reason. I hardly ever feel fulfilled after we are intimate (regardless of what happens). We have spent hundreds of dollars, but nothing has helped. We have your book (bought it soon after we got married). It has informed us, but nothing has changed. My husband and I are very open in our communication on this subject, but we just feel like we’ve tried everything. Just asking what else can we do to help me be fulfilled?
crubyc,
I have been thinking about your entry.
Everyone is so different about this issue. I also went through a similar experience, but I feel like I am on the other end of it now. I really do not like to advertise about it, but it seems that my life is fast becoming an open public book.
My sexual abuse began when I was 13 months old and went on and off until I was 17 years old (by several different men).
At 17, I got help. I went through about 3 years of weekly, sometimes 2-3 times a week sessions. I saw 7 counselors during that time…until I found one that worked for me. I took a break, and then went back on and off for a total of 4.5 years. I am very comfortable talking to my husband about it now, so I rarely go anymore…unless it is something that my hubby thinks that a professional would know how to help me more (rare).
“I went through a lot sexual molestation as a child, but have hardly any memory of it.”
Perhaps you have no need to remember it right now or you may not be ready to deal with it. ??? I remembered it in layers. I journaled like crazy.
“I have tried everything to remember them (therapists-many), but nothing has helped.”
Did you go to a counselor who specializes in sexual abuse? I am not sure how religious you are, but prayer helped me a lot to find the right therapist for the right time. I also have a very strong belief that the Atonement of Jesus Christ could help heal me, and it has. I had MANY Priesthood blessings to help me. I believe in the power of God. If God can part the sea, move mountains, and create the Earth, he can also bless me with what I needed.
During one of my most intense therapy sessions, it took 2 hours. I had to consciously choose to be vulnerable for the greater good. Later, I was given some “music therapy” by a friend (who is a counselor). This helped me to remember the early years (which were the most painful for me). How it works is that you listen on headphones this ocean type music…it is scientifically engineered to opens the brain channels to your deeper subconscious. Basically, I would listen to this before bed, while driving, or just prior to therapy. After 2 days, I felt anxious but did not know why. Soon after, I started remembering things, which isn’t always fun, but I knew that I wanted to “get better”. It went in layers from feeling like I was 15 years old, then 7 years old or 3 years old, etc. I had the hardest time with feeling memories, but talking to a professional was still the best thing.
“I have a difficult time being intimate with my hubby because I don’t like being touched in many ways for some reason.”
I wonder if you have really pondered this and asked yourself why…or what it is specifically that bothers you. Is it the feeling? Is it the way the touch feels? Do you actually associate the touch with the sexual abuse? Maybe when it happens you could slow down and talk to your husband about it, to really understand yourself and what’s going on. Again, these are all good things that a sexual abuse therapist could address.
“I hardly ever feel fulfilled after we are intimate (regardless of what happens).”
I am not sure what you are saying here. What do you mean? What does it mean to YOU to be fulfilled? Are you talking about having an orgasm? or the lack of it? Emotionally? Do you feel disconnected? Can you explain this more? Thanks.
I hope I didn’t just babble for no reason. Sorry this was so long. I am also wondering if this has nothing to do with sexual abuse…but other factors. ??
Do you feel that “sex is bad”? Do you feel guilty during or after it? Do you think about your husband’s body and your intimate moments outside of the bedroom? Are there any other factors that lead to you feeling “unfulfilled” that are not mentioned here? (Past problems, medications, depression, self image issues, etc.)
This has nothing to do with you…but I know of a woman who masturbated when she hit puberty. Later she stopped the practice for religious reasons. Years later, when she married, she could not stand to be touched because it was not the same as from years earlier. She had to re-teach herself to relax and enjoy the new touch.
TMI! Sorry.
RE: Sexual Abuse
Hi crubyc,
I thought it was interesting to get your post. I just returned from a three-day training on sexual abuse and trauma. We may be stunned to know that 1 in 3 women have been sexually abused or have experienced sexual trauma, and 1 in 4-6 men have experienced it as well. (I have to wonder if some of our “sexual desert” husbands’ wives have had some degree of inappropriate sexualization as children.) These stats are simply shocking. That is a lot of people who have been significantly affected in their thoughts, beliefs, actions and reactions to many things in life, but especially toward sex.
It’s great that you have sought out therapists to help you overcome the effects of sexual abuse. I do hope you will keep seeking until you find the answers you need. Most people will not be able to fully overcome without professional help.
I’m very sorry that things haven’t seemed to work sufficiently well for you yet. Sometimes the timing just isn’t right. I think our soul knows when it’s time to break free. The timing must be right for this kind of trauma work and healing. I think we also do that in stages, kinda like peeling an onion.
I would certainly recommend you check out the book “The Sexual Healing Journey: A guide for Survivors of Sexual Abuse” by Wendy Maltz. You can also find out a lot of good information on her site: http://www.HealthySex.com. This book was one of the required readings for this Sex Therapy course.
(There are some things about sexual orientation and masturbation in the book that she’s a little off on, but otherwise it’s an incredible book for anyone to guide their journey to sexual wholeness. It can help those without obvious sexual abuse as well.)
The content covers:
Part I — Starting Out: Becoming Aware
Ch 1 — Realizing There’s a Sexual Issue
Ch 2 — Acknowledging the Abuse
Ch 3 — Identifying the Sexual Impact
Ch 4 — Deciding to Reclaim Our Sexuality
Part II — Moving Forward: Making Changes
Ch 5 — Creating a New Meaning for Sex
Ch 6 — Finding Our Real Sexual Selves
Ch 7 — Gaining Control over Automatic Reactions
Ch 8 — Moving Toward Healthy Sexual Behavior
Ch 9 — Healing with an Intimate Partner
Part III — Getting There: Creating Positive Experiences
Ch 10 — Techniques for Relearning Touch
Ch 11 — Solving Specific Sexual Problems
Ch 12 — Enjoying Sexual Experiences
You might also consider getting the video program she also created called “Relearning Touch” that can help couples start at ground 0 and work their way up from there at their own time and pace. I saw some of the video and thought it was great. I plan to use it in future couples retreats. It’s great for everyone. I believe you can get it by calling Intervision at (541) 343-7993 or emailing info@intervisionmedia.com. (I’m not sure how much it is, as I haven’t ordered it yet.)
Here’s a good overview article by Wendy Maltz as well: http://www.voicesofstrength.org/intimacy.htm.
Some of the things she suggests for sexual healing are:
–Stop sexual behaviors that are part of the problem.
–Learn about healthy sexuality. (I hope our book “And They Were Not Ashamed” can be helpful in that regard.)
–See yourself as separate from what was done to you.
–Learn to handle automatic reactions to touch.
–Familiarize yourself with touch techniques.
After attending this training I am more convinced than ever that inappropriate sexualization of children (or any of us) is terribly damaging. But with persistence and a lot of time and effort sexual healing and wholeness can occur.
I hope something here will be helpful to you. I’ll be praying for you and others who have had similar painful experiences. God bless!!
Today I was reviewing Laura’s book, “And They Were Not Ashamed”. I was reading pages 68-70. These pages seem to apply to what has been said here about the causes of low libido and the gaps of desire. (Or at least they are a good reminder).
“Love is a choice. For many women, engaging in sexual relations may also have to be a conscious choice. With information and suggestions in this book, sex need not be begrudgingly and hesitatingly endured, but become a source of BOUNDLESS pleasure and intimacy.” (Chapter 4)
I remember reading this before, and feeling the peace its truthfulness. It’s a choice. I also remember that at first as I opened up emotionally and allowed myself to be a sexual person, it felt kind of fake or foreign. I kept pursuing in my vulnerability and I made conscious choices to allow myself the pleasure that Heavenly Father invented for husbands and wives.
Marital physical intimacy has become a marvelous source of boundless pleasure. Confidence in me and in my husband has grown in other areas of our marriage. Our ability to work towards and enjoy sexual fulfillment together has happened a day at a time.
With God, ALL things are possible.
A couple of questions about vibrators.
I (the higher drive Husband) would like to get a vibrator. My lower drive wife doesn’t think it is “OK”
We read Laura book, and my DW interpreted Laura’s short part on vibrators as “They are ok only for just starting out and learning how the female parts work”.
I’d like to get one for several reason, including:
1) I’d like something to help get her excited during the times when she is typically “unexcitable”.
2) I can sometimes get her excited by rubbing her, but she usually says I am not “consistent” enough – slow down or speed up or change something – so I am looking for something “consistent”
So here are my questions …
a) How many other people here have vibrators? Have they be a positive thing?
b) How have other people interpreted Laura’s section on vibrators? Are they “ok” or “bad”?
My wife and I just got married at the beginning of this year. Starting off, things were okay – my wife didn’t like or enjoy sex but she didn’t dislike it either. She said that she just enjoyed being with me even if she didn’t like sex. Since that point things have changed a bit.
Now it’s to the point where she absolutely hates sex worse than almost anything and we’ve talked and talked about it but can’t seem to figure out why or what to do about it. It is very hard since I have a very strong sex drive and not only does she have no sex drive but she has an anti-sex drive and hates sex and tries to avoid it. We try to communicate about everything as openly as possible regarding sex and this problem but she just can’t get over how much she hates it.
We have tried to work on ways to help her experience an orgasm thinking that maybe it would help with this problem but I don’t think we’ve ever even come close. When we try she says that it’s just very uncomfortable when I try to stimulate her and so we just give up before she gets too ornery about it. If she ever starts to feel any “pleasure” she says it feels dirty and wrong like if she were being raped or something and she can’t seem to get over that.
To be honest, I think it would be nice if we could find a counselor or therapist to help. I just don’t know how to go about finding one that would be good, and that we can trust and be comfortable with. I have read a decent portion of Laura’s book and there is some good advice but my wife either doesn’t think it applies to her, doesn’t think she can follow it, or doesn’t care.
We are both at a loss of what to do to try and work on this problem. I almost wish we could meet with Laura, since I don’t know how to even find a good LDS therapist that I can trust and she seems to know so much. Does anyone have any suggestions that might help us either find a good therapist in Utah or solve this problem another way?
[from Comments Page]
Subject: Preparing for Marriage!!
Date: March 30 2009
Name: Trevor
Comments:
HEY EVERYONE! OR LAURA… It seems that many people are getting the book as an enrichment or help for marriages, which is wonderful and I’m sure we will always seek enrichment later on… But we’re just starting. Getting married in a couple months. And we’re open to advice. One of the books we read was so doom and gloom, using what felt like scare tactics about how difficult marriage is, we felt horrible reading it. We don’t have any problems with each other, quite the opposite! I would like your opinions on how much to talk about sex, as we’re just starting. Pre-honeymoon, and the first few months. Much of the info available sounds great, but I don’t want my wife to feel overwhelmed. I personally feel like I’m pretty sensitive and I don’t know if I want her to feel like she’s having sex as a duty or for my sake. She seems like she IS very excited about sex and will be. If i am sensitive and caring, i feel like it will only get better. I feel like I can be very giving and let things go naturally as we talk about everything. We’re very open already. Of course we will learn beforehand about how sex works and I will definitely have learned how to make it enjoyable for her sexually. If we’re open, do you think we could do without reading too much? I DO feel like STARTING with ideas presented in “And They Were Not Ashamed” before marriage will be much nicer than trying to change things for people who have already been married for a while, but what do you think would be best in our case? Thanks!!!
Hi Trevor,
I have moved your comment from the StrengtheningMarriage.com Comments page to the blog here so that it will be a little bit easier for people to respond.
I do believe the book And They Were Not Ashamed can be very helpful for those not yet married as well as for those who already are. This book is a must read for any who want to start out better than the rest of us probably did! : )
Since you are not yet married I would suggest you read the book separately, or together in a public place. It all depends on the two of you as to what would be best. If you can read the whole book (except maybe the last three chapters on how to teach your children–although it’s great for reeducating yourself as well) that would be best. But if you are not able to read it all then chapters 3, 4 and 5 are most critical to know and understand before the honeymoon. It can make all the difference between having a positive experience or starting out on the wrong foot that can take a long time to overcome. Things don’t have to be perfect, but the more you can learn about each other’s expectations and understand your differing wiring the better! I hate to see more honeymoon horror stories created out of ignorance!
I also recommend that you read the article “From Honeymoon to Happily Ever After—Preparing for an Intimately Fulfilling Relationship,” which I wrote especially for soon-to-be-married couples like you. You can find the article here: http://www.meridianmagazine.com/LdsMariageNetwork/060802honeymoon.html.
I wish you well on your exciting new adventure of marriage. I would encourage you and any other engaged couples to get all the marriage education you can. You can find many articles here on this blog and on the Articles page: http://www.strengtheningmarriage.com/news.php. I would even look into a couple sessions of premarital counseling with a good marital therapist for good measure as well. The better prepared you can be the better off you’ll be! Good luck!
Trevor,
You are pretty thoughtful to think about all of this before marriage. Personally, I think that the better prepared you are…the nicer things will be. So many couples are afraid to learn…and communicate their thoughts to each other!
Obviously, some of the “homework” may need to wait until after marriage.
From the 1st Chapter, Laura’s book can help both of you “reprogram”…and you are picking the best time to do it!
Congrats on your marriage!
Laura,
I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on the effects of solo masturbation in a marriage where both spouses are open and accepting of the practice and don’t conceal their occasional participation in it from one another. (I’m referring to masturbation that is not in the presence of the other spouse and that never involves pornography.)
Many commenters in other LDS forums on sexuality claim that it has been a great blessing in marriages with disparate sex drives by helping “level the playing fields.” Others say that it awakens and increases, rather than detracts from, the wife’s desire to be sexual with her husband, thus increasing the frequency and quality of marital intimacy.
I have read your insightful views on self-learning and its distinction from masturbation. I would be very appreciative of any insight you may have regarding the possible consequences (good or bad) of unconcealed masturbation in marriage beyond the scope of temporary self-learning.
First, is this Open Forum extremely slow for anyone else, or is it just me? (no pun intended!)
mormongirltrue, I appreciate the question as I have also wondered about this. What are your thoughts? Hopefully we can get enough input that people can make their own informed decision…
Hi mormongirltrue,
Masturbation is certainly one of those controversial issues. It is one of those questions that is best answered between husband and wife and God if necessary. You may want to review the information I’ve written specifically about how to determine what’s okay and what isn’t in one’s marriage.
This information provides principles for people to consider putting into practice within their unique marital relationship. This post links you to multiple writings I’ve done on this subject:
“What’s Okay and What Isn’t Sexually”
http://strengtheningmarriage.com/blog/sex/whats-okay-what-isnt-sexually/
I think the key questions to ask yourself are:
– What is the purpose or intent of the behavior?
– What are the short-term and long-term outcomes of adding masturbation to your intimate relationship?
– Is the marriage relationship more likely to be strengthened or might it be weakened in some way?
Certainly any secrecy with masturbation in marriage is likely to lead to a weakening of the intimate relationship.
Even though I can see how masturbation may be used in some marriages to “level the playing field” or even account for illness or separation or whatever, in the long run I don’t think that masturbation is God’s intent for marriage even for crisis management.
I can’t imagine that it would be His remedy for a less than ideal situation, but again, that’s just an opinion. Since God has not said much about masturbation within marriage, and since there are often many factors to consider, this becomes one of those important times for couples (or individuals) to go to the Lord for the right answer. But even that brings up another important factor–one’s spiritual connectedness to God, their ability to receive divine guidance, or even their degree of spiritual strength.
I think it’s pretty clear that God does not think masturbation is a good idea outside of marriage, which I certainly agree. There’s no good reason to stir up those feelings when the divinely approved outlet for such expression is not yet available until marriage.
While masturbation may be a natural inclination (particularly for men), I don’t agree with the societal teaching that it’s “healthy” to masturbate. Regardless of the circumstances, I do believe God prefers that we turn to Him for help in fulfilling our needs–whatever they may be.
I do see learning about our bodies as something very different than masturbation though, particulary for women who may not have ever seen or are not familiar with their bodies. As you mention “Others say that it awakens and increases, rather than detracts from, the wife’s desire to be sexual with her husband, thus increasing the frequency and quality of marital intimacy.” To me this could certainly fall under the category of “self-learning” if it was a short-term process for learning how to experience pleasure or to awaken one’s sexuality.
In this situation, the question of whether the behavior has the effect of strengthening or weakening the intimate relationship might possibly be answered as being a means of strengthening the relationship. But only the individuals involved can really answer that questions accurately.
If masturbation was being used as a substitute for the intimate relationship between husband and wife, then it moves into the category of having a weakening effect on the relationship and even one’s connection to God.
Laura, I hope you aren’t offended that I share this link on your blog. I have followed Dr. Corey Allan for a while now. He has some pretty good insights about marriage. This is one of my favorite articles that he has written…
“When it comes to sexual connection, there are three categories of couples. The sexually barren, the sexually average, and the blessed few….”
(I personally hope to make it with the blessed few..lol!)
http://www.simplemarriage.net/man-upwoman-up-how-to-have-curl-your-toes-sex.html
I thought this LDS marriage and family therapist’s blog had some great insight about the issue of masturbation in marriage:
http://mormontherapist.blogspot.com/2009/04/is-occasional-masturbation-by-married.html
“I think it has been taught by some that as we lay our bodies down, they will so rise again in the resurrection with all the impediments and imperfections that they had here; and that if a wife does not love her husband in this state she cannot love him in the next. This is not so. Those who attain to the blessing of the first or celestial resurrection will be pure and holy, and perfect in body. Every man and woman that reaches to this unspeakable attainment will be as beautiful as the angels that surround the throne of God. If you can, by faithfulness in this life, obtain the right to come up in the morning of the resurrection, you need entertain no fears that the wife will be dissatisfied with her husband, or the husband with the wife; for those of the first resurrection will be free from sin and from the consequences and power of sin. This body ‘is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.’ ‘And, as we have borne the image of the earthly, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.’” (Brigham Young; October 6, 1862; Journal of Discourses, Volume 10; “Future State of Existence”)
Hannah,
There is hope for all of us as long as we keep trying and never give up!
I should clarify also that from my perspective, others that have posted here such as Sir John and JustGettingBy are miles ahead of me in terms of the peace that they have reached and the direction they seem to be headed. While I know in my head what I need to do, my heart is lagging behind a bit. I feel hypocritical in that I don’t completely practice what I preach. But it helps me to express the remedy here and reinforces to me what I need to do, and hopefully my heart will eventually catch up.
hannah,
You said you wondered why are these guys staying? I can’t answer for others, but for me it was simple. I love my wife more than anything in the world. I don’t want to be with anyone else.
I am actually quite amazed that my love has continued to grow over the years, even while feeling much stress. Before I got married I would have assumed this situation would have put out the fire of love. I think part of why my love for her has grown is that in my search to find out “what I was doing wrong” (like all the books kept telling me was probably the problem) I learned to try really hard to serve her. We come to love those that we serve.
JustMe,
Ah… Hypocrisy. I believe that this word usually misapplied. When most people call someone a hypocrite, what they mean is, “I don’t want to hear a difficult truth, because you are not a perfect person.” The threat of hypocrisy should encourage people to be better, not discourage people from speaking better. We should be able to talk of ideals in spite of our weaknesses. I appreciate all you have contributed, your strength and wisdom. Don’t shy away from expressing your opinions, even if they are ideals that you fall short of. We are all better for it.
By coincidence, I was going to say that I am worst of all at app lying these principles. Pride is the trap that trips me up, time and time again. Reading, writing, and discussing the way I ought to be helps me reach closer to that ideal.
Sir John